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	<title>Comments on: Young Folks pt. 2</title>
	<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/</link>
	<description>the best friends you'll never have</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 00:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: tinypants</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3382</link>
		<author>tinypants</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 04:26:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3382</guid>
		<description>I don't think all parents are stricter, but I think changes in media are more notable than changes in parenting. Putting aside the "grittier" issue, which could be debated either way, I think one major reason the BSC would be a hard sell now is its generally optimistic, pro-authority, pro-adult outlook. I know that sounds kind of crazy but bear with me.

One thing I'm always struck with re-reading the BSC as an adult is not just how much faith adults put in the girls (giving them endless amounts of responsibility for their children and solving their "mysteries" as well), but how much faith the girls have in the adults around them to do the right thing. Think about, for example, about Kristy and Watson's heart-to-hearts.

Newer media, not even for teens but for kids, has a much stronger anti-adult, "kids rule" message. I will say this is more true of Nickelodeon properties than Disney, but you still see plenty of savvy kids/clueless parents on Disney shows. The BSC's faith that mom and dad know best is totally at odds with this.

Another trend in newer kid media that the BSC does not work with is detachment and irony. I mean, from start to finish, the BSC is pure sincerity. Whereas if you look at other media even for young kids -- any recent movie made from a Dr. Seuss book, or the latter Shrek films for example -- it's all about irony. Half the time it is like teaching kids to mock something (think classic Disney fairytale characters in the Shrek movies) before they've possibly even seen the real thing. The BSC girls, with their frequent moments of wide-eyed wonder and their love of e.g. the Hayley Mills oeuvre, would be totally at odds in this world. 

Another publishing trend that is concurrent with this that also isn't mentioned above in terms of where parents are going to find "values friendly" material for kids -- the explosion in series books for evangelical or at the very least, Christian audiences. All that's keeping the BSC out of this subgenre is a heaping helping of bible quotes, otherwise the series would pretty much fit in with the types of values depicted in these books. The BSC are honestly that different from the types of values seen in the regular, secular series -- the closest approximations around now would be series about younger girls (seventh graders usually) such as The Clique and The Ashleys.

And yes -- long story short, the newer books ostensibly aimed at older kids (though I don't think any "for ages 15 and up" message on the back of Gossip Girl does anything more than allay the fears of Alloy's lawyers) are much, much, much racier than the older books. I would disagree that they are more issues-oriented though (I can't speak to single-title books, so I am only talking about series here).
 
Reading the newer books, I'm surprised at how almost nothing IS an issue at this point: Eating disorders, alcoholism, drug use -- all the staples of YA books of the past -- are all at this point treated in a totally blase manner. I mean the bad girls from "Stacey and the Bad Girls" have nothing compared on these newer books. So maybe they are grittier in the sense that all these things are happening all the time and it's no big deal, but I don't know, at least for me I wouldn't define grit that way.

(Sorry this was so long!)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t think all parents are stricter, but I think changes in media are more notable than changes in parenting. Putting aside the &#8220;grittier&#8221; issue, which could be debated either way, I think one major reason the BSC would be a hard sell now is its generally optimistic, pro-authority, pro-adult outlook. I know that sounds kind of crazy but bear with me.</p>
<p>One thing I&#8217;m always struck with re-reading the BSC as an adult is not just how much faith adults put in the girls (giving them endless amounts of responsibility for their children and solving their &#8220;mysteries&#8221; as well), but how much faith the girls have in the adults around them to do the right thing. Think about, for example, about Kristy and Watson&#8217;s heart-to-hearts.</p>
<p>Newer media, not even for teens but for kids, has a much stronger anti-adult, &#8220;kids rule&#8221; message. I will say this is more true of Nickelodeon properties than Disney, but you still see plenty of savvy kids/clueless parents on Disney shows. The BSC&#8217;s faith that mom and dad know best is totally at odds with this.</p>
<p>Another trend in newer kid media that the BSC does not work with is detachment and irony. I mean, from start to finish, the BSC is pure sincerity. Whereas if you look at other media even for young kids &#8212; any recent movie made from a Dr. Seuss book, or the latter Shrek films for example &#8212; it&#8217;s all about irony. Half the time it is like teaching kids to mock something (think classic Disney fairytale characters in the Shrek movies) before they&#8217;ve possibly even seen the real thing. The BSC girls, with their frequent moments of wide-eyed wonder and their love of e.g. the Hayley Mills oeuvre, would be totally at odds in this world. </p>
<p>Another publishing trend that is concurrent with this that also isn&#8217;t mentioned above in terms of where parents are going to find &#8220;values friendly&#8221; material for kids &#8212; the explosion in series books for evangelical or at the very least, Christian audiences. All that&#8217;s keeping the BSC out of this subgenre is a heaping helping of bible quotes, otherwise the series would pretty much fit in with the types of values depicted in these books. The BSC are honestly that different from the types of values seen in the regular, secular series &#8212; the closest approximations around now would be series about younger girls (seventh graders usually) such as The Clique and The Ashleys.</p>
<p>And yes &#8212; long story short, the newer books ostensibly aimed at older kids (though I don&#8217;t think any &#8220;for ages 15 and up&#8221; message on the back of Gossip Girl does anything more than allay the fears of Alloy&#8217;s lawyers) are much, much, much racier than the older books. I would disagree that they are more issues-oriented though (I can&#8217;t speak to single-title books, so I am only talking about series here).</p>
<p>Reading the newer books, I&#8217;m surprised at how almost nothing IS an issue at this point: Eating disorders, alcoholism, drug use &#8212; all the staples of YA books of the past &#8212; are all at this point treated in a totally blase manner. I mean the bad girls from &#8220;Stacey and the Bad Girls&#8221; have nothing compared on these newer books. So maybe they are grittier in the sense that all these things are happening all the time and it&#8217;s no big deal, but I don&#8217;t know, at least for me I wouldn&#8217;t define grit that way.</p>
<p>(Sorry this was so long!)</p>
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		<title>By: greer</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3033</link>
		<author>greer</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 19:06:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3033</guid>
		<description>I don't know any little kids who are allowed to watch the Simpsons or Family Guy. The parents I know of elementary school-aged kids are much stricter than my parents were or my friends' parents, as I remember. Maybe the world has changed, or maybe it's a generational thing--how gen x parents raise children versus how baby boomers did. You'd think that with my dad being 18 years older than my stepmother he'd be more conservative, but he's the one buying my 6 year old brother indiana jones and star wars dvds, when my stepmom is constantly fretting that he will have nightmares from then (he hasn't).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know any little kids who are allowed to watch the Simpsons or Family Guy. The parents I know of elementary school-aged kids are much stricter than my parents were or my friends&#8217; parents, as I remember. Maybe the world has changed, or maybe it&#8217;s a generational thing&#8211;how gen x parents raise children versus how baby boomers did. You&#8217;d think that with my dad being 18 years older than my stepmother he&#8217;d be more conservative, but he&#8217;s the one buying my 6 year old brother indiana jones and star wars dvds, when my stepmom is constantly fretting that he will have nightmares from then (he hasn&#8217;t).</p>
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		<title>By: mizzmarvel</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3032</link>
		<author>mizzmarvel</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 18:12:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3032</guid>
		<description>YA books are still mostly about sex, drugs, Big Issues, etc. The big difference is that there are way more of them being published than, say, ten or twenty years ago. It finally dawned on publishers that this is a HUGE market.

Also, I wouldn't say that entertainment for us as fourth graders was necessarily more gritty than that of current kids. I also watched Pete and Pete and The Simpsons (neither of which were specifically written for a fourth grade audience), but I knew kids who hated these shows. Kids were also watching things like Goof Troop and Bobby's World - pretty harmless. Kids now are watching Hannah Montana, but they're also watching The Simpsons (still) and Family Guy. When my little brother was about fourth grade age, he liked the Backstreet Boys, but his favorite show was Oz. I think it's largely just a matter of personal taste.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>YA books are still mostly about sex, drugs, Big Issues, etc. The big difference is that there are way more of them being published than, say, ten or twenty years ago. It finally dawned on publishers that this is a HUGE market.</p>
<p>Also, I wouldn&#8217;t say that entertainment for us as fourth graders was necessarily more gritty than that of current kids. I also watched Pete and Pete and The Simpsons (neither of which were specifically written for a fourth grade audience), but I knew kids who hated these shows. Kids were also watching things like Goof Troop and Bobby&#8217;s World - pretty harmless. Kids now are watching Hannah Montana, but they&#8217;re also watching The Simpsons (still) and Family Guy. When my little brother was about fourth grade age, he liked the Backstreet Boys, but his favorite show was Oz. I think it&#8217;s largely just a matter of personal taste.</p>
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		<title>By: rebecca</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3031</link>
		<author>rebecca</author>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jun 2008 02:59:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3031</guid>
		<description>I'm the original poster of that comment, and I have to disagree with you.  First of all, middle grade books are aimed at ages 8-12 (see here: http://write4kids.com/feature6.html ), which is not outside of the age range the BSC books are targeted to.  I never meant to imply that the BSC books were young adult books; I know that they're for a younger group than that.  I was only saying that writing for young people of all ages has gotten grittier in general.

That said, I used to aim to be be a young adult and middle grade writer.  The reason I no longer aim to do that is because I wrote things that were signficantly less "sheltered" than the BSC books, and agent after agent told me that they were too clean-cut.  That was my style, which I was told was outdated.  I do still read a significant amount of middle grade and young adult literature, and it's definitely not as clean cut as the things I read when I was young.

Also, I should add that I started reading the BSC books at age 6.  I was an advanced reader and was told that the books were too old for me, but I enjoyed them anyway.  The other books I was reading, even then, were far less "clean" than the BSC books.  If literary agents claim that standards have changed in the last 20 years, as they've told me, then surely the BSC books are significantly outdated past the point of being re-released for a new generation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m the original poster of that comment, and I have to disagree with you.  First of all, middle grade books are aimed at ages 8-12 (see here: <a href="http://write4kids.com/feature6.html" rel="nofollow">http://write4kids.com/feature6.html</a> ), which is not outside of the age range the BSC books are targeted to.  I never meant to imply that the BSC books were young adult books; I know that they&#8217;re for a younger group than that.  I was only saying that writing for young people of all ages has gotten grittier in general.</p>
<p>That said, I used to aim to be be a young adult and middle grade writer.  The reason I no longer aim to do that is because I wrote things that were signficantly less &#8220;sheltered&#8221; than the BSC books, and agent after agent told me that they were too clean-cut.  That was my style, which I was told was outdated.  I do still read a significant amount of middle grade and young adult literature, and it&#8217;s definitely not as clean cut as the things I read when I was young.</p>
<p>Also, I should add that I started reading the BSC books at age 6.  I was an advanced reader and was told that the books were too old for me, but I enjoyed them anyway.  The other books I was reading, even then, were far less &#8220;clean&#8221; than the BSC books.  If literary agents claim that standards have changed in the last 20 years, as they&#8217;ve told me, then surely the BSC books are significantly outdated past the point of being re-released for a new generation.</p>
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		<title>By: Penny</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3030</link>
		<author>Penny</author>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jun 2008 03:49:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3030</guid>
		<description>I was getting too old for the bsc when I was 12 or so; I remember many conversations with friends about how silly the books were, always repeating the years and how it made no sense what so ever that these girls got to do the things they did.  By that, we really meant that we were sad that none of us had a steady boyfriend that was allowed to come over when our parents weren't home. 

I don't know if the books would sell very well if they were re-released though.  it seems like the children's publishing world was getting very small until Harry Potter came along and revitalized reading; but right now all the trends seem to be either fantasy/magic, or books with quirky characters who stand out, graphic novels, and things that are faster paced.  

I, of course, am really only exposed to children who post on the bsc boards illegally so I don't actually know what they like.  

I do remember reading some pretty racy things growing up though.  LIke flowers in the attic and it's sequels and vc andrews other novels.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was getting too old for the bsc when I was 12 or so; I remember many conversations with friends about how silly the books were, always repeating the years and how it made no sense what so ever that these girls got to do the things they did.  By that, we really meant that we were sad that none of us had a steady boyfriend that was allowed to come over when our parents weren&#8217;t home. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know if the books would sell very well if they were re-released though.  it seems like the children&#8217;s publishing world was getting very small until Harry Potter came along and revitalized reading; but right now all the trends seem to be either fantasy/magic, or books with quirky characters who stand out, graphic novels, and things that are faster paced.  </p>
<p>I, of course, am really only exposed to children who post on the bsc boards illegally so I don&#8217;t actually know what they like.  </p>
<p>I do remember reading some pretty racy things growing up though.  LIke flowers in the attic and it&#8217;s sequels and vc andrews other novels.</p>
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		<title>By: Laura @ hungryandfrozen</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3027</link>
		<author>Laura @ hungryandfrozen</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 02:33:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3027</guid>
		<description>I do see your point. By the time I was 13 I was on my way to Sweet Valley Books and the BSC was a bit...young. I remember reading some gritty YA fiction, nothing as flashy or product-placement-centric as today's stuff. And thank goodness I had the BSC instead of Hannah Montana! Nice to see you back by the way :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I do see your point. By the time I was 13 I was on my way to Sweet Valley Books and the BSC was a bit&#8230;young. I remember reading some gritty YA fiction, nothing as flashy or product-placement-centric as today&#8217;s stuff. And thank goodness I had the BSC instead of Hannah Montana! Nice to see you back by the way <img src='http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: mode_a_la_pie</title>
		<link>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3025</link>
		<author>mode_a_la_pie</author>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Jun 2008 02:21:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid>http://blog.stoneybrookite.org/2008/06/25/young-folks-pt-2/#comment-3025</guid>
		<description>totally agreed. i felt like i was getting too old for the bsc by the time i was 11, and i don't think the current "racy" series like gossip girl and the a-list are for elementary school kids. i've only read one book in ann's current series, main street, but it seems just as wholesome as the bsc if not more so. there must be plenty of conservative parents who would like having their kids read books like that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>totally agreed. i felt like i was getting too old for the bsc by the time i was 11, and i don&#8217;t think the current &#8220;racy&#8221; series like gossip girl and the a-list are for elementary school kids. i&#8217;ve only read one book in ann&#8217;s current series, main street, but it seems just as wholesome as the bsc if not more so. there must be plenty of conservative parents who would like having their kids read books like that.</p>
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